Autocostruzione TU x 6C33C

Discussioni relative alla componentistica ed accessoristica per autocostruzione audio. Dove trovare materie prime a buon prezzo. Come impiegare i componenti al meglio.
mauropenasa
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Messaggio da mauropenasa »

pero` dico sempre che x le mie orecchie i tubi suonano meglio del silicio!
:D Assolutamente, questo non lo metterei mai in discussione.... Dopo un cosi certosino lavoro immagino che suoni meglio tutto anche solo per la presenza del ferro..... :D
PS per Mauro Penasa: sei proprio cattivello . Pensa al tempo che uno perde per una ben specifica donna, quando ce ne sono almeno altri 2.000.000.000 fra cui scegliere.
hehehe, sadismo mio a parte... :D , mi sa che le 2 cose non sono effettivamente molto distanti tra loro....

ciao

Mauro
http://www.webalice.it/mauro.penasa/index.html
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UnixMan
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Messaggio da UnixMan »

Ciao a proposito di frazionamenti verticali sul sito Haschimo è presente questo riferimento ad un articolo di:

The relationship between the Horizontal and the Vertical Dividing Methods: from MJ Feb 2002 Issue, Page 133


Originariamente inviato da mrttg - 10/10/2006 :  16:22:24
sembrerebbe interessantissimo... ma ci vorrebbe anche qualcuno che ci faccia la traduzione dal giapponese all'italiano, od almeno all'inglese... :x

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Paolo.
Ciao, Paolo.

«Se tu hai una mela, e io ho una mela, e ce le scambiamo, tu ed io abbiamo sempre una mela per uno. Ma se tu hai un'idea, ed io ho un'idea, e ce le scambiamo, allora abbiamo entrambi due idee.»
Ivo
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Ciao Paolo,

Grazzie per la permessa di parlare in Inglese, Il mio Italiano e solamento abbastanza buono per fare turismo !

So, no I've not built that OPT, it is just how I would do it for me.
Of course, as long as it remains on paper, it is impossible for me to insure that results will be as expected but look at the attached simulation I reasonably trust in.
Note that there are no resonant frequency and that phase shifts gently at edge of band.

About the losses, 0,4dB means 10%, and vice et versa.

It also appears that, at 15W, induction remains less than 1,4T down to 20Hz.

A reduction of capacitance could be obtained in increasing the thickness of insulation beween primary and secondary sections, but this will increase leakage inductance and finally results in some in band resonances.

To bring back leakage down, we should use more sections, but this increase capacitance again and we will overflow from the copper window.
So, a larger iron should be used so that the turns number could be reduced, reducing in turn the leakage and increasing capacitance due to the larger areas face to face ! ! !
There is a point where miniscule improvements could only be acheived at a large expense of time, money and time vasting.

Probably, we could try to obtain much more impressive values / numbers, something "eccezionale" or, in my humble opinion, somewhat "overdesigned".
Anyway, from my point of view, any OPT is a sum of compromises and here is what I beleieve to be a very good one.

I've made a small improvment changing secondary wire dia and using wires in parallel.
This to optimize the filling of the copper window and reducing skin effect.

File updated, reload it if needed.
Immagine
Immagine
Immagine

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plovati
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Messaggio da plovati »

Ciao a proposito di frazionamenti verticali sul sito Haschimo è presente questo riferimento ad un articolo di:

The relationship between the Horizontal and the Vertical Dividing Methods: from MJ Feb 2002 Issue, Page 133

http://www.tube-amps.net/images/Technic ... inding.jpg

Qualcuno riesce a rintracciare l' articolo completo??

Ciao Tiziano


Originariamente inviato da mrttg - 10/10/2006 :  16:22:24
Ho chiesto aiuto alla comunità internazionale:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthre ... adid=88033
Speriamo, è in effetti molto interessante.

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mrttg
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Messaggio da mrttg »

Ciao Paolo,
vista la scarsa reperibilità di rocchetti con sezionamenti verticali (si fatica con quelli ad una flangia)... pensi di costruirti un cartoccio ad hoc?

Saluti Tiziano
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UnixMan
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So, no I've not built that OPT, it is just how I would do it for me.
Of course, as long as it remains on paper, it is impossible for me to insure that results will be as expected but look at the attached simulation I reasonably trust in.
bunch of questions... first of all: how did you simulate the OPT? Just by using an equivalent circuit with the values provided by your program or do you have a means to actually simulate the magnetic circuit? (I've read that MicroCAP can do that, but never had time to see how to do that or how well would it work...).
Note that there are no resonant frequency and that phase shifts gently at edge of band.
yeah, that's nice!
A reduction of capacitance could be obtained in increasing the thickness of insulation beween primary and secondary sections, but this will increase leakage inductance and finally results in some in band resonances.
but, as far as I have understood, reduction of capacitance can be obtained also by using "vertical" sectioning too, right? According to Crowhurst (see the article cited by Piergiorgio, they're in the "library" section) using vertical sections will reduce the capacitance by a factor ~ proportional to the square of the number of vertical sections... that is, using 3 vertical sections should reduce the capacitance by about a factor of 10, AFAIU without nasty effects on the leakage inductance. That's why I was thinking about 15P + 12S sections "vertically" splitted in 3 (that is, 5P+4S "layers" on each of the 3 vertical "sections"). :?:
There is a point where miniscule improvements could only be acheived at a large expense of time, money and time vasting.
that's surely true, but...
Probably, we could try to obtain much more impressive values / numbers, something "eccezionale" or, in my humble opinion, somewhat "overdesigned".
...let' try to do that anyway! :D

After all, I was about to pay several hundred Euros for a commercial made OPT... comparing to that, I guess the cost differences for a bigger core such as an EI150 would be practically irrelevant. :) And when deciding to go DIY, required time and efforts have been disregarded anyway. :D
Anyway, from my point of view, any OPT is a sum of compromises and here is what I beleieve to be a very good one.
absolutely, that looks very good indeed...


Ciao,
Paolo.
Ciao, Paolo.

«Se tu hai una mela, e io ho una mela, e ce le scambiamo, tu ed io abbiamo sempre una mela per uno. Ma se tu hai un'idea, ed io ho un'idea, e ce le scambiamo, allora abbiamo entrambi due idee.»
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Folks, this is funny: I started a diy Italian forum to avoid my trouble with English and now seems we're jumpin' back ! :grin:

The difficult thing in vertical sectionalizing is the lack of a suitable coil former. In the Diy approach, it can be used a set of wooden or plastic spacers and some mylar or bachelite interframes, so first fill one vertical section with spacers that limits the area, then remove one spacer, fill the adjacent and so on... but it is really to be reserved to strong-minded, take.it.easy people.

A possible alternative comes from the switching transformer practice. In this products in order to reduce the parasitic capacitance with quite large wires and to maintain a ordered winding is used some tefzel coated wire. I saw many of this wire in different form and colors in a local coil winder just last week. He said that is very good, very well ordered wind for diameters over 0,3 mm dia can be obtained.

edit I told You English is not my best skill :oops:
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UnixMan
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Messaggio da UnixMan »

vista la scarsa reperibilità di rocchetti con sezionamenti verticali (si fatica con quelli ad una flangia)... pensi di costruirti un cartoccio ad hoc?
Ouch! :?

BTW, una cosa alla volta. Al momento non avevo ancora preso in considerazione il problema reperibilita`... contavo di riuscire a trovarli, da qualche parte. Alla peggio, ho un amico con le mani d'oro ed una vera e propria officina meccanica in garage, in qualche modo il problema lo risolviamo! :D


Ciao,
Paolo.
Ciao, Paolo.

«Se tu hai una mela, e io ho una mela, e ce le scambiamo, tu ed io abbiamo sempre una mela per uno. Ma se tu hai un'idea, ed io ho un'idea, e ce le scambiamo, allora abbiamo entrambi due idee.»
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UnixMan
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Messaggio da UnixMan »

Folks, this is funny: I started a diy Italian forum to avoid my trouble with English and now seems we're jumpin' back ! :grin:
that's life... :D
The difficult thing in vertical sectionalizing is the lack of a suitable coil former. In the Diy approach, it can be used a set of wooden or plastic spacers and some mylar or bachelite interframes, so first fill one vertical section with spacers that limits the area, then remove one spacer, fill the adjacent and so on... but it is really to be reserved to strong-minded, take.it.easy people.
mmmh... is it really impossible to find some? have you tried in the US? and in Russia? (...I guess you've already tried on the Net, right?)

Otherwise, we must find some solution... the first thing that came to my mind is to cut a "normal" former, add the required spacer(s) and then glue (or possibly "weld", if using former & spacers made of thermoplastic materials) everything back together afterwards... could it work?
A possible alternative comes from the switching transformer practice. In this products in order to reduce the parasitic capacitance with quite large wires and to maintain a ordered winding is used some tefzel coated wire.
I've never heard about "tefzel" before... what is it? some kind of Teflon? Why does it help keeping ordered winding? And what is the idea behind reduced capacitance, the increased thickness of wire insulation or the different dielectric constant (or both)?

If the reduction of capacitance is obtained through increased wire spacing (due to increased insulation thickness), what happen to the leakage inductance? wouldn't it increase, too?
I saw many of this wire in different form and colors in a local coil winder just last week. He said that is very good, very well ordered wind for diameters over 0,3 mm dia can be obtained.
I guess that would be perfect for this application... we need rather thick wires anyway.

If it is some sort of Teflon, I guess that would have some nice HV rating, too... that indeed I need: for the "stacked supply" version of the PowerTotem, max voltage between primary and secondary (as well as primary to core) will be the driver supply (~430V DC for the "regular" version or up to some 600V for an "over the top" de luxe version... :) ) plus the max superimposed signal swing... that means to be safe some >1KV insulation is required!


Ciao,
Paolo.
Ciao, Paolo.

«Se tu hai una mela, e io ho una mela, e ce le scambiamo, tu ed io abbiamo sempre una mela per uno. Ma se tu hai un'idea, ed io ho un'idea, e ce le scambiamo, allora abbiamo entrambi due idee.»
Ivo
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So, no I've not built that OPT, it is just how I would do it for me.
Of course, as long as it remains on paper, it is impossible for me to insure that results will be as expected but look at the attached simulation I reasonably trust in.
bunch of questions... first of all: how did you simulate the OPT? Just by using an equivalent circuit with the values provided by your program or do you have a means to actually simulate the magnetic circuit? (I've read that MicroCAP can do that, but never had time to see how to do that or how well would it work...).
I've spend some time in measuring OPTs I've wound myself (so the building details was precisely know) then tried to empiricaly reproduce theire behaviour using LTSPICE.
No, it's not a "scientific" method, but it gave accurate results for all tested units tested, about 10.
Indeed, may be the 11st trial could fail :twisted:
but, as far as I have understood, reduction of capacitance can be obtained also by using "vertical" sectioning too, right? According to Crowhurst (see the article cited by Piergiorgio, they're in the "library" section) using vertical sections will reduce the capacitance by a factor ~ proportional to the square of the number of vertical sections... that is, using 3 vertical sections should reduce the capacitance by about a factor of 10, AFAIU without nasty effects on the leakage inductance.
Vertical sectionizing reduce capacitance because the "contact" area between windings as well as the voltage gradient are divided by the number of vertical sections.
But coupling between vertical sections is almost null because the field lines travels like radius.
That's why I was thinking about 15P + 12S sections "vertically" splitted in 3 (that is, 5P+4S "layers" on each of the 3 vertical "sections"). :?:
Doing so, coupling losses (so represented by leakage inductance) will be the same watever the vertical sectionizing could be and we will have height "contact" points susceptible to increase capacitance.
Crowurst pointed that, using half sections at begening and ending of the stack considerably reduces leakage.
He showed some "coupling efficiency" coefficients (the highest, the best) where you may find that 5P + 4S value is 20 while the 1/2S, P, S, P, S, 1/S I suggested is 36.
Near twice better and with only 6 "contact" points, interwinding capacitance is also reduced by a factor of 6/8.
After all, I was about to pay several hundred Euros for a commercial made OPT... comparing to that, I guess the cost differences for a bigger core such as an EI150 would be practically irrelevant. :) And when deciding to go DIY, required time and efforts have been disregarded anyway. :D
Choosing a bigger core is certainly the most efficient approach because leak inductance being proportional to the square of the turns number, it will be lower for a given induction and primary inductance.
I'll check to morrow (too sleepy now zzzzzzz) :o

Originally posted by UnixMan - 10/10/2006 : 18:37:47
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UnixMan
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I've spend some time in measuring OPTs I've wound myself (so the building details was precisely know) then tried to empiricaly reproduce theire behaviour using LTSPICE.
It would be quite interesting to know more about that. If you wish to share your experience and methods, that would be worth a thread on itself... 8)
Doing so, coupling losses (so represented by leakage inductance) will be the same watever the vertical sectionizing could be and we will have height "contact" points susceptible to increase capacitance.
Let me see if I have got it right. The idea was to use "horizontal" sectionizing (layered interwinding) to minimize leakage inductance and then also some vertical sectionizing to decrease capacitance, too. According to what I have (not quite...) understood, there should be some "optimal" way of doing this (ratio of horizontal to vertical sections) such as to minimize both Lp and Cp. But from what you say here I have not understood whether you agree with this or not... :?:
Crowurst pointed that, using half sections at begening and ending of the stack considerably reduces leakage.
Right... lately I've eventually understood that "trick". As I told, I'm completely new to this matter, and slowly trying to learn something... :oops:
He showed some "coupling efficiency" coefficients (the highest, the best) where you may find that 5P + 4S value is 20 while the 1/2S, P, S, P, S, 1/S I suggested is 36.
Near twice better and with only 6 "contact" points, interwinding capacitance is also reduced by a factor of 6/8.
Good. Yet I guess we may keep the same trick increasing the number of "contact" points (Pri/Sec "interfaces") to further increase the coupling. With 8 "optimized" interfaces ("contact" points) the coefficient would jump to 64, at the expense of a somewhat increased capacitance. Right?

Bringing the concept to its extreme limit, we may design an OPT such that we have only two layers of either pri/sec windings in the internal sections and just one layer on the last, external ones... if I got it right, this would give us the maximum possible coupling (thus the minimum possible leakage inductance) at the expense of a rather high capacitance.

(edit: given the relatively small number of total primary turns required, such a crazy scheme could even be really feasible with a more or less reasonable number of sections in the case of an 6C33 OPT... :o).

Now, what I still have not quite understood is whether further "vertical" splitting of the coils could reduce this capacitance, and exactly why/how...
Choosing a bigger core is certainly the most efficient approach because leak inductance being proportional to the square of the turns number, it will be lower for a given induction and primary inductance.
Allright, so this could mean that maybe we can get the exceptional performances we're seeking without gettin' crazy with overcomplicated winding schemes... that could be a great news, indeed. :D


Ciao,
Paolo.
Ciao, Paolo.

«Se tu hai una mela, e io ho una mela, e ce le scambiamo, tu ed io abbiamo sempre una mela per uno. Ma se tu hai un'idea, ed io ho un'idea, e ce le scambiamo, allora abbiamo entrambi due idee.»
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Let me see if I have got it right. The idea was to use "horizontal" sectionizing (layered interwinding) to minimize leakage inductance and then also some vertical sectionizing to decrease capacitance, too. According to what I have (not quite...) understood, there should be some "optimal" way of doing this (ratio of horizontal to vertical sections) such as to minimize both Lp and Cp.
Originally posted by UnixMan - 11/10/2006 :  12:11:37
Yep. Increase the number of horizontal section beyond 9 (more or less) has disadvantage because of the increase of capacitance and less space left for copper. There is a optimum, and there shoud be some math relation to found it.
But this is more a issue for an interstage transformer than a 6C33 output tranny!

Instead of use insulation paper over each layer, it can be possible to use Tefzel of teflon coated wires: low dielectric constant, ordered winding, reduced interwinding stray capacitance, high insulation voltage (2000V or so). This is the modern and cost effective way to obtain best performance without particular winding skills in my view.

Also a single uninterrupted secondary with large section litz wire such us the one proposed by autocostruire:

http://www.autocostruire.it/modules.php ... cle&sid=69

and vertical divided like the Hashimoto drawing to reduce capacitance.

The vertical sectionalizin in this case should be provided by many overplaced turn of a narrow scottch tape, that divides 2 section of secondary.

Better to place the primary in the outermost external position, to redice the mean turn lenght of the secondary (most critical for DC resistance) and use a 1/2P S P S 1/2 scheme to reduce leakege.


So, we have:

primary tefzel coated wire 0,3mm, intermediate connection to adjust impedance, many ordered turn withstanding high insulation and low capacitance. 1/2 P at the two end (nearest and fartest to core)

0,4mm or so of teflon insulation

secondary litz wire uninterrupted (all section in series without soldering (difficult with litz) of large section, winded just over a portion of the horizontal widht and divided in two spaced coils like Hashimoto proposed arrangement.

large C cores of Crowhurst suggested economic design proportion (approx in case of HWR a section a 2x3 ratio)


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Yep. Increase the number of horizontal section beyond 9 (more or less) has disadvantage because of the increase of capacitance and less space left for copper.
with "number of horizontal section" do you mean the total number of (Pri+Sec) sections or the just the primary ones?
There is a optimum, and there shoud be some math relation to found it.
it may be interesting to get a translation of that MJ article; I wonder if there's anything there... :|
and vertical divided like the Hashimoto drawing to reduce capacitance.
I miss that... how it's done?
So, we have:

primary tefzel coated wire 0,3mm, intermediate connection to adjust impedance, many ordered turn withstanding high insulation and low capacitance. 1/2 P at the two end (nearest and fartest to core)

0,4mm or so of teflon insulation

secondary litz wire uninterrupted (all section in series without soldering (difficult with litz) of large section, winded just over a portion of the horizontal widht and divided in two spaced coils like Hashimoto proposed arrangement.

large C cores of Crowhurst suggested economic design proportion (approx in case of HWR a section a 2x3 ratio)
this looks like a SOUND idea! (in all senses! :D ) Quite interesting...

combined with the 6 interfaces scheme proposed by Ivo it may give excellent results with (relative...) ease of construction. Great! 8)

Only a few doubts...

* 0.3 mm for primary seems a bit small to me: we have 230mA DC + signal there... I'd like to keep the current density low, possibly < 1A/mm^2. That would require thicker wire and/or more than one parallel wires... :?:

* with thicker wire insulation, we'll get thicker sections (for the same number of turns). Wouldn't this impact negatively on Ld?

P.S.: what does "HWR" means? :oops:


Ciao,
Paolo.
Ciao, Paolo.

«Se tu hai una mela, e io ho una mela, e ce le scambiamo, tu ed io abbiamo sempre una mela per uno. Ma se tu hai un'idea, ed io ho un'idea, e ce le scambiamo, allora abbiamo entrambi due idee.»
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A proposito di materiali x trasformatori, mi hanno segnalato questa raccolta di link a varie ditte italiane:

http://www.trafoconsult.com/i_miei_link.htm

tra cui, qui` se non sbaglio hanno anche i rocchetti con le flange... :)

http://www.zetti.it


Ciao,
Paolo.
Ciao, Paolo.

«Se tu hai una mela, e io ho una mela, e ce le scambiamo, tu ed io abbiamo sempre una mela per uno. Ma se tu hai un'idea, ed io ho un'idea, e ce le scambiamo, allora abbiamo entrambi due idee.»
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Si la zetti è il più grosso fornitore italiano di accessori per trasformatori.
Solo due gole pero' si trova comunemente. Le 4 o più gole sono solo per rocchetti per ferriti.
Ivo usa rocchetti della Isolectra, le dimensioni che ci sono nel suo SW sono un poco diverse da quelle dei rocchetti Zetti. Conviene editare i valori dei dati di libreria standard di OPT-Da e magari crearci una libreria italiana...

Ho dei campioni di filo interessanti che ho preso proprio oggi. Postero' la foto e i diametri. Costoso, mi dicono.

Immagine

0,3mm va più che bene considerando che è multifilare, no effetto pelle e che lavorare a 2A/mm^2 è già moolto conservativo.
Non serivebbe isolante tra le sezioni, il Litz come si vede è un doppio isolamento già lui.

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Si la zetti è il più grosso fornitore italiano di accessori per trasformatori.
Solo due gole pero' si trova comunemente. Le 4 o più gole sono solo per rocchetti per ferriti.
Ivo usa rocchetti della Isolectra, le dimensioni che ci sono nel suo SW sono un poco diverse da quelle dei rocchetti Zetti. Conviene editare i valori dei dati di libreria standard di OPT-Da e magari crearci una libreria italiana...
Hey Piergiorgio !

Ho trovato un distributore dalla Zetti vicino da qui, piu interressante per me che la Isolectra.
E anche per picole quantitta de ferro e "copper".

Dove si trova la libreria italiana per OPT_DA ? :D

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Dove si trova la libreria italiana per OPT_DA ? :D

Originariamente inviato da Ivo - 11/10/2006 :  22:32:37
Actually, only in my dreams :)
I tried to compare the pst results with the tables that my trafo_man use and results are somewhat different, so I have to take some time to understand their methods and parameters.
For OPT_DA is the same: little differences to be trimmed.





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Fili interessanti si trovano in quetso sito e diversi sono disponibili in italia:

http://www.tex-e.com/index_f.htm

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Solo due gole pero' si trova comunemente.
meglio che niente... alla fine gia` con due sezioni verticali la capacita` si riduce di un fattore 4...
Conviene editare i valori dei dati di libreria standard di OPT-Da e magari crearci una libreria italiana...
sarebbe una cosa da fare... se posso dare una mano, lo faccio volentieri. :)
0,3mm va più che bene considerando che è multifilare, no effetto pelle e che lavorare a 2A/mm^2 è già moolto conservativo
aehm... PG, l'effetto pelle e` dovuto alla distribuzione del campo elettromagnetico intorno al conduttore nel suo complesso; se i singoli "trefoli" sono raggruppati e non sono isolati tra di loro (in pratica se non e` un litz), il multifilare non risolve affatto il problema dell'effetto pelle! Anzi, casomai peggiora la situazione creando verosimilmente altri problemi in quanto il segnale si trova a dover saltare continuamente da un trefolo all'altro (attraversando ogni volta la barriera di contatto...).

Anche sulla densita` di corrente non mi trovi molto daccordo... considera che in questo caso abbiamo a che fare con impedenze piuttosto basse - poche centinaia di ohm, non qualche Kohm. Se 2A/mm^2 possono essere soddisfacenti in un TU x una EL34 o simili (forse... sto` leggendo i vecchi articoli di F.Callegari su CHF e lui consigliava 0.8A/mm^2 per la DC e circa 1.4A/mm^2 per la max Irms in TU da diversi Kohm...) direi che non lo e` affatto nel caso di un TU x la 6C33 con impedenze di qualche centinaio di ohm e max Irms nell'ordine dei 600mA. IMHO per minimizzare le perdite ed evitare possibili fenomeni di "distorsione termica" legati a riscaldamento localizzato nei picchi di corrente abbiamo bisogno di una sezione complessiva del primario > 1mm^2. Il che significa che dobbiamo fare o due primari da circa 0.5 .. 0.6 mm ciascuno in parallelo (avvolgimento bifilare oppure 2 primari divisi su sezioni verticali), oppure ricorrere a filo Litz di diametro equivalente adeguato anche per il primario. :o

A questo punto pero` -dato che aumenta l'altezza delle sezioni- rischiamo di far risalire troppo la Lp... :?:


Ciao,
Paolo.
Ciao, Paolo.

«Se tu hai una mela, e io ho una mela, e ce le scambiamo, tu ed io abbiamo sempre una mela per uno. Ma se tu hai un'idea, ed io ho un'idea, e ce le scambiamo, allora abbiamo entrambi due idee.»
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Messaggio da UnixMan »

Fili interessanti si trovano in quetso sito e diversi sono disponibili in italia:

Originariamente inviato da mrttg - 12/10/2006 : 09:26:43
Questi qui` sarebbero perfetti:

http://www.tex-e.com/product/texelz.htm :p

(la versione + grande forse potrebbe andare bene perfino x il secondario...).

hai idea se siano disponibili?


Ciao,
Paolo.
Ciao, Paolo.

«Se tu hai una mela, e io ho una mela, e ce le scambiamo, tu ed io abbiamo sempre una mela per uno. Ma se tu hai un'idea, ed io ho un'idea, e ce le scambiamo, allora abbiamo entrambi due idee.»
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